Gosset:
We all want to curb hunger and eradicate poverty in Africa. But are we doing enough about it? Answering this question today is a rock star: Paul David Hewson, better known the world over as Bono. Youths and Heads of State look up to him. Bonjour, Bono.

People are saying that we should be more generous with Africa – again. But where is all that aid going? Is it being used properly – in Africa and elsewhere? Can you name one country where European aid, for example, is being handed out and used properly and sensibly?

Bono:
Well, you know, France is a creature of aid. Germany is a creature of aid. The Marshall Plan helped to rebuild Europe after the War. Ireland, the country I come from – and where I came from last night – is also a creature of EU aid. Ireland was a very, very poor place (even 20 or 25 years ago). Now, it has, I think, the second-highest mean average wage in the world. So aid can work. You need to invest in education. You need to invest in infrastructure. Africa is our next-door neighbour. As Ireland was. Africa is only eight miles from Europe. We should remember this.

Gosset:
We will obviously be getting back to Africa and to the impending G8 meeting. But, as you are one of them, I wanted to ask you whether you were surprised by the fact that a sizeable majority of Ireland’s people voted against the Lisbon Treaty. Did you vote?

Bono:
Yes, I voted. I voted yes. It was a difficult manuscript and it wasn’t very well explained at home. I think three things happened. The extreme left spread stories about what might happen and the extreme right spread stories about what might happen (and created a sort of unusual alliance in the No camp). But I think the third reason is perhaps more interesting: people don’t get Europe right now. Not just in Ireland but throughout Europe. Europe is a concept. It’s an idea. It has yet to become a feeling. And I think that, unless people feel Europe, feel what Europe is about, it will be hard for them to get excited about it (even though they have benefited so much from it, as Ireland has).

Thinking about what to do with the continent of Africa, our next-door-neighbour continent, I think, actually focuses people on European values, on what they are, on whether we have any at all, and on whether they include making promises to the poorest of the poor and then not keeping them. Do these values include photo opportunities with all the great and the good and then not fulfilling obligations? It’s one thing to break promises to yourself or to your electorate. It is entirely different to break promises when people’s lives depend on them. I think that is a failure on Europe’s part. And a failure on the part of our values if we have them in Europe.

Gosset:
Do you feel Europe might be bankrupt? A diminutive country is holding 500,000,000 people to ransom…

Bono:
You know, it’s not up to me to comment on European unity. At this point in time, I don’t think Ireland wishes to hold back Europe’s progress. I genuinely think the Irish people were not sure about the implications, and that that is why they vote no. They are not spiritually opposed. In fact they are very encouraging of the concept of Europe.

But I’ll say one thing about Ireland: Ireland is keeping its promises and its commitments to the poorest of the poor. Ireland ranks sixth on the list of the top twenty countries in terms of per-capita commitments to the poorest of the poor. I am very proud of that. And I think it’s interesting that Africa and Ireland have this relationship. Perhaps it’s because Ireland was under the hoof of the colonial jackboot in its own day. Because Ireland itself experienced famine in the middle of the 19th century. We lost half our population to what is known as the Potato Famine. People put it down to, “What a shame, they were dependent on a single crop.” But, in fact, 2,000,000 people died in the middle of the 19th century not because potatoes ran out but because of bad management. At that time, Britain was using Ireland as its breadbasket. We were exporting cows, sheep and the like. And it’s the same in Africa. There’s a sort of fog surrounding this issue. People say there’s corruption in Africa. Yes there is. It’s a big problem. They also say these are situations we don’t know what to do about. If you go into the Famine Museum in Ireland, you will see the same excuses posted on the walls, and in the day’s media.

Gosset:
One last question about Ireland: do you think talks and another referendum to see whether Ireland can join Europe and adopt the Treaty are the way to go now?

Bono:
I’m not the person you should be asking that question to. Yes, maybe.

Gosset:
Yes what? Another referendum?

Bono:
I’m the guy that talks about Africa…

Gosset:
But Europe sends aid to Africa. If Europe stops working, it will hurt Africa. That’s the problem. That’s the issue here.

Bono:
That’s a very serious problem. Because, if European aid follows the French model, which has recently fallen into decline. It will be very bad news for Europe and very bad news for Africa. I accept that. President Sarkozy is Brussels for an EU Summit (and he will be holding the EU Presidency starting in July). Over the next few weeks, the French will decide whether these issues are a priority for them or not. And, if France falls away, others will use that as an excuse. We have the UK, we have the US, and we have Germany. We hope we have France. I have high hopes for President Sarkozy. I like him very much. But we have to see the actions matching the words.

Gosset:
I will be asking you exactly what you expect from Europe and from President Sarkozy but this show’s tradition involves a flashback across your your life and career starting as U2’s front man. Two France 24 journalists prepared this profile.

Do you see yourself as a rock star or rather as an ambassador against poverty today? Who is Bono today?

Bono:
Music is what I’m about. And our music in U2 has always been about what’s going on outside the rehearsal room, what’s going on outside in the real world, not just in our rock-star lives. My inspirations were people like The Clash, Bob Marley and Bob Dylan. We believe that the world is more malleable than people think. We believe you can kick it and bend it into shape. Things do not have to be the way they are. That’s right at the core of our music. Music was like an alarm clock for me. It woke me up, as a teenager, to what was going on in the world. It educated me. It’s been my university. It’s been my Art School. That’s who I am.

Gosset:
Are you still a rebel?

Bono:
Oh, yes!

Gosset:
You have been knighted and awarded the Légion d’Honneur, but you’re still a rebel…

Bono:
Oh, yes. Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you. Make them interesting because they are going to live with you for a long time. U2 always chose interesting enemies. Not the obvious. We weren’t the rock group throwing the television out the window. We aren’t here to take a piss on the street. We have interesting enemies. Our enemies are things like our own indifference. That’s my enemy. I’m rebelling against my own indifference. I’m rebelling against my own hypocrisy. When you’re a kid, you think it’s us and them. You know, you’re throwing stones at the enemy. It’s much more glamorous to be on the barricades, for me, with a handkerchief and a Molotov cocktail. But I have got more done by engaging in conversations, by making rational arguments, by organising, by doing all the dull, boring stuff. It’s not enough to imagine. That’s what you guys did in the 60s: you sat around and imagine. We’re about building the bricks for progress and for peace.

Gosset:
The G8 that breaks its promises – as indeed has France, as indeed has Germany – will be meeting in Japan in a few weeks’ time. What would you like to say to the world’s richest countries?

Bono:
Germany, actually, despite its difficulties, is on an incline. It increased aid by €760 million last year. We have heard that this year’s budget will be similar. So Germany is doing the right thing. Despite the fact that reunification has cost them 4% of their GDP every year.

Gosset:
So congratulations Angela Merkel.

Bono:
Angela Merkel has done the right thing. And she is there now with Brown. Bush made a more modest proposal but he’s keeping it. We need the French leadership. The African continent looks to France. They love the French way. They want the French way. The French must not walk away.

So, what do I want? I believe that, if the French people stand up, at this difficult time (with recession, oil prices and so on), and say, “We are talking about French aid totalling 0.16% of a US$ 2 trillion economy this year, and we made a commitment to go to 5…” Your ODA is at 0.4 now. It’s actually one notch up. It’s about US$ 1 billion in extra aid. That is what we would need in the next year or so. And we think the French people are behind that. That’s our view. If they make their voice known.

Gosset:
But what do you say to the G8?

Bono:
I would say that there is a lot at stake. The whole political process… Are these just talking shops? Is this a joke? That you can stand in a photograph, with your arms around other statesmen, and say, “Yes, we make a promise to the world’s poor that we will increase aid to Africa over the next five years by 25 billion,” and then walk away and it’s not there? Jacques Chirac signed his own name. Tony Blair signed his own name. Those pledges became contracts at that moment. It’s not just some communiqué. There’s a lot at stake in this stuff. And it’s not just the moral stuff. What I like about President Sarkozy is that he’s not motivated by guilt. Forget the past. He’s about the present and the future. He realises that we need Africa as a trading partner.

Gosset:
Yes, but France pushed back its pledge from 2012 to 2015. So we’re going to be late, too.

Bono:
It’s hard. But we can live with him moving the goalposts from 2012 to 2015. As long as he puts the ball in the back of the net (in terms of French commitments). We really can. That’s fewer people going to school. But they’ll eventually get to school.

Gosset:
The last question, because I know you have a plane to catch and get back to recording your new album. The US could well have a black president soon. Do you think his Kenyan extraction might make a difference – in the US and in Africa? And, while we’re at it, will he win?

Bono:
I like Barack very much. Senator Obama is someone with whom we have worked very well over the last few years. I know him quite well. He has signed up to an increase in aid. He has signed up to a commitment to defeat the AIDS emergency. You know, it just takes two pills a day and people stop dying. You can get those pills from any corner chemist here. So he will support the Global Fund, as France does. I think he will do a great job for us. But one of the reasons he will is because there’s a growing movement of people in America who are saying that this is important to them, people who want the US to be seen as a benign presence in the world, not just as a military presence in the world. There are campaigners out there. One starts his campaign in France here today (and you can sign up with one.org). And, wherever Barack Obama goes, there are people asking him questions about Africa. Wherever John McCain goes there are people asking questions about Africa too. When there were ten candidates, they were all being hounded by one campaigner. This is real politics. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the National Rifle Association.

Gosset:
Yes, of course.

Bono:
It’s a very dangerous thing in the US. They are the people who make sure it’s OK to be able to buy a gun in America. We don’t think it’s OK. But they’re very organised. We want to give for the world’s poor. We want to be the NRA for the world’s poor. We want to be very organised. When people get behind us we support them, and when people are against us.

Gosset:
So Obama in the White House would be good news for the world and for Africa?

Bono:
I think it will be very good news for the world. But I hasten to add that John McCain is a supporter of our ideas too.

Gosset:
So who would you vote for?

Bono:
Once I put on my One T-shirt, I gave up my right to be from the Left or from the Right. This is the one thing both can agree on. So I’m basically an unusual Irish rock star (because we never shut up) but I will remain mute about who I would vote for were I American.
 

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